PHIL 103 C, Wednesday, 11-1-17

Mill, "On Liberty", Chapter 3

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Transcript

Philosophy 103G Wednesday, November 1, 2017 okay so you may recall that I told that I read to from paragraph 11 Mill says before goes any advantage for his argument based on the any idea of abstract right instead he bases it on utility and we had a long discussion in which he became clear that what utility means is something useful something that produces some good and many of you was talking in a contemporary mode about rides excuse express the kind of resentment that anybody should would dare to think is that he that he has the right to tell you not to speak not to say something it’s a matter of a sense of one’s own dignity and worth as human beings and so we we tend to talk that way about human rights now Mill is not talking about how would be an offense to the person who was silenced he’s talking about the consequences of thought and discussion and he’s making an argument that thought and discussion are beneficial so that’s what you have to focus on that as a they produce utility they produce something good there was a similar problem in many of your essays some people thought that the reason that it was okay for Socrates to ask people questions even if there’s been a law against it was because look the God told him to do it and so it was a matter of authority kind of a power issue you have the right authority in the right backer nobody should tell you to do otherwise without any consideration of why the authority might authorize you to do it or of what benefit you’re doing it might be to anybody but on the contrary that’s exactly what’s our visit talking about and he did not characterize but God has a source of power but is a source of truth and told Socrates interpreted what he said as a command to pursue truth and that’s why it is obedience to the god it’s not just that he’s doing with the guy told him he’s living a life that involves trying to get as close to an understanding of the God is he could for the human being could do now what watching what are the final essay mean the final exam that’s out of order but what’s what’s the problem why would you want to bring it up now right y’all three essay questions will be on exam so half the exam will be questions you’ve already written on the other exam will be on the other three questions will be on familiar topics but not that you’ve it actually they so when Socrates considers good benefits he talks about what what what are the goods that he talks about the various dialogs that you’ve read and read very many assisted the beginning but it but it’s a beginning that Plato wrote as a as a clue an introduction to Socrates so it’s away that many thousands of instructors are used to introduce to the Plato and the philosophy so what what did you find where the good that Socrates was talking about what’s the use of role about piety is pricey and good Jeff Consists sometimes referred to as well let me I’ll answer that question but it has to do is somehow was a good relationship to authority in general the gods in particular what about the what about the apology there is so there is talk of justice in the apology but that much really say that process let because of the trial when you think it is irrelevant or did yeah loss yeah but doesn’t talk much about the laws in the apology doesn’t he does talk about the events of ours they’re involved in the charges against him and doesn’t spend much time at lets let’s go let’s do an easier one actually the apologies needed want to but you’re apparently not thinking of it in those terms what’s the what’s the Meeno about what’s the good day talk about Camino virtue okay now what’s the relationship for the good virtue to the good piety the shouldn’t I’m not trying ask difficult questions about the nature of either of those which as we know from using frozen Meeno struggles are difficult to define but just what kind of thing are we talking about Ellie Arcos what what’s the relationship is a virtue in five that’s not the relationship between those two is all we need knowledgeable that we haven’t spoken of that virtue yet sticking is one of the virgin birth so the question amino is more general but it’s it’s a question that meal raises cause he wants the whole virtue is acquired right so this is well prescription what it is what about the Kreitel what what good is the cradle about well hear that you have a little more scope for your answers because what good is cried out talking to Socrates about Credit was upset is any don’t get upset when we think something bad going on some sun somebody to get CSA back and discovers she got an a she’ll get upset al now it’s terrible so what’s the upset about what’s quite upset about no he’s in jail execution of the sentencing what what is the sentence does not pussyfoot around here death is he does not want Socrates to die why his friend and other friends anything special about Socrates well let’s see you get your estimate and no doubt you’re right but what if what I’m saying is what is it that how does he feel about Socrates maintains a friend is true but is it seems to me to be in some ways a week after we like if you if you somewhere were to ask you how did the disciples feel about Jesus being nailed to the cross you could say that lost a friend and that would be true you wouldn’t regard it is quite enough to express they’re There sense sense of their own experience right that’s true that’s true about but how how do you feel that Socrates was he would be okay with him and Socrates died if he isn’t as long as his reputation cradles on the intact not not all I’m suggesting is the reason I expressed little to assess that with misfit’s answer this doesn’t merely regard human being on earth it’s a beautiful expressive when when using fro Heard from Socrates that mellitus who use of our never heard of was charging Socrates with him by the end Socrates presented that idea in a positive light not saying guilty of it but saying that people worry about the use and improve in proving youth are doing the right thing cause that’s most important thing and implying it’s not actually stating that if he in fact was corrupting you dish dish you get given and use it from responding that by saying I’m afraid that what smelled this is doing is the very opposite of that instead of getting rid of the worst person who’s making the use that in fact he’s trying to get rid of the very best so that is how Credo feels what is being lost is not just something different him but who’s the very best for for sandwiches so that the the way to the disciples felt about that crucifixion is legislated lost a friend but that but they lost to eight you know whether they’ve clearly thought of him as the son of God or whatever clearly is as somebody whose the teachings of God and so on world extraordinary importance I’m so so so cry does if write a losing Socrates and you want Socrates to be able to continue be the kind Wise teacher that he has been even though he’s going to be a little inaccessible and this was not an age of a guided communications we have have a lot of communication with your friends not so easy in those days if Socrates was in exile incessantly but basically you see good that you use that credo starting about his wife doesn’t want Socrates killed you want to ally we can relate to that what is the good that Socrates is interested in that leads him actually to say no to that yeah but okay but what is it that leads him to the conclusion that you should follow the laws he reminds usufruct sorry cried out of what they have learned over the years he says we shouldn’t be panic into a decision making our whole turning our whole lives work into child’s play this child’s play causes just pretending not real but we should take what we have learned about these things and apply it to the situation and do what our knowledge tells us is best what is the knowledge that he claims they have that they’re going to use to make a decision in this situation absent from any of your essays it’s not an easy point to understand but it shouldn’t be all that hard to remember that he says it at least he says that the only life worth living is what kind life I just left that’s right in other words in his it doesn’t say this explicitly in this context is is very little talk about it he does talk about this point in the action of the public but many of us think tend to think of justice as something that’s for the benefit of somebody else so that if you don’t steel then the person whose stuff you didn’t steal is better off the bit the benefit of mine are stealing we normally think it goes to somebody else not to me because if I didn’t steal that I would have if I successful going to be in bad thief and go get caught and thrown in jail let’s no good but if I was successful see that I will have things that I would not otherwise have had right into the benefit of not being a thief is too those were not stolen from that’s the way we tend to think of justice that’s why so many even on the commandments art don’t hi if you if you don’t steal if you don’t covet your neighbors wife it’s your neighbor who benefits are you being commanded to do it but right that is not what Socrates says about justice not that he would deny that that’s true that somebody who doesn’t have something valuable to the stolen benefits from your not feeling it but that’s not really what he means by Justice and when he says in the apology that death is a swift runner in that it eventually catches us all but just in justice injustice are even faster cause they don’t catch us eventually they catch us immediately meaning that if you are on Jost you immediately become worse what about you is worse what Saul your mind where whatever you want to call it right now when he talks about the mind and its goods what is he call those goods of the mind what’s the word that’s right virtue is the word and there are different ones so that suggests that the mind has a certain degree of complexity different facets so here’s an analogy to help you understand this a little better not going back to Plato but I want to put it to use in Mill as well the hell are the solar virtue is like the health of the body like it not the same but they’re alike because health is not any particular function the body it’s what you have when all of the functions are doing well kidney salons or something like that because all those organs are interdependent and in disease in one if not corrected will soon costly disease in the other and ultimately the death of the organism right to justice is like that some one one of the not just yes just like that and virtuous like that one of the virtues is courage now do you see where courage is discussed anywhere in his I will think of anywhere that might be sisters by the way it’s not an easy question but if it’s possible you might just don’t want way too long but just in case anybody see anything critical occurred what wetware I’m sorry courage you think that’s courage he doesn’t call courage sold don’t we usually don’t usually think the courage has to do with fear this working I say has to do with fear try to get a simple answer because people people with a reputation for being brave like soldiers frequently tell us when they’re asked that there’s no such thing as a soldier whose fearless right but that doesn’t the subject of fear, who’s afraid yes it’s crazy it’s characteristic of the of lack of courage that when you’re faced with the actual threat to courage is a virtue that has to do with standing up to bad stuff whatever the young however you can see what’s that but as is it it is standing up to it fighting against so cried all according to Socrates is not showing courage because afraid of Socrates that he’s abandoning the truth they’ve worked for Olesya because he’s afraid of death and Socrates in the apology when he speaks of the possible offer from them to let them know punishment if he keeps his mouth shut pieces always as I will follow God I am like a guard I’ve been appointed to oppose I’m on duty at I’m not allowed to abandon my post I might get killed while I’m doing it but that’s my job there is no discussion of any other particular virtues in these dialogs even justice because when he introduces what the idea of what they agreed to in learned over the years in amino and he says the justice is up the good of the soul he doesn’t really spell out the way I was doing like the comparison between health is the go to the body and virtue were justice is the good of the soul doesn’t really spell that out but he eats he gives a couple of hints in that direction said that justice went when you live justly it is that it you who are being would are good and that’s what makes for a good life however puzzling you may find that that’s what you say right and therefore he says to too cried out what’s more important is to live well live a good life not a long life and it says that Dr. King made the same point in his speech just a short time before he was murdered in and and he is said that he said specifically that longevity is a good thing he said that yeah I have seen the and he didn’t something that made him satisfied with his life you thought would pay off in The future for his people zone people and for the country song So that’s are you saying you lead a good life maybe it’ll be long maybe it won’t but that that’s not as important as whether it’s good or not so we have in these these dialogs that I’ve been reviewing with you just now suggestions about virtues goods of the mind other than the one main one that he talked about mostly and particularly in the apology what is it that the than Apollo the god of the Oracle Delphi’s spoke for when Apollo say was Socrates virtue wisdom and that we’ll give you some idea of some of the relationships between the verge because if courage means standing up to evil and defending good then you need to know what’s evil and what’s good it’s something sometimes we defend the wrong things in a text the wrong things so in other words if we start thinking about the soul as like the body where there are different functions and they coordinate with each other the end one of the functions as the nervous system which corresponds to wisdom because it’s the one that regulates the others the its function is regulatory dieting whereas things like the the kidneys in the liver their function is to get rid of poisons right that’s where courage comes in this thing get the bad stuff and get rid of it even more obvious analogy your courage and another function it is very important that we talk about a lot of these days the human body what what fights against bad things immune system and we talked about a lot because sometimes the immune system get stock price turns on itself returns on the organism that’s a special kind of disease.